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Moksha is Earned, unlike Heaven
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www.Hindu-Forum.Org Forum Index » Open Discussion » General Hinduism » Moksha is Earned, unlike Heaven

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ramaraksha

Age: 50
Joined: 25 Dec 2008
Posts: 37
Location: CHICAGO

Posted: Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:21 am Post subject: Moksha is Earned, unlike Heaven

Moksha is earned, not given, and that is the essential difference between Moksha & Heaven. Apparently, according to some religions, one can beg for God’s mercy like a dog and then be allowed to taste the pleasures of heaven, one must lower oneself to a slave/subject/servant level, agree with everything “god” says, & beg for his mercy for the mistakes that he or she may have committed.

But one can’t beg for Moksha, because Enlightenment is acquired thru knowledge. Hinduism, Buddhism are Teacher faiths, followers are Students of God and must actively pursue the knowledge being imparted by our Guru, God. Many times we are imparted great knowledge but it maybe only years later that we get the point. God is not going to force this knowledge on to Her Students; each student must acquire this knowledge in his own way and in his own time. It is important that throughout our life we examine our actions dispassionately, be introspective, and seek to change our behavior when necessary.

Let’s take an example: Driving a car, you make a mistake and cause a horrible crash. You die, and if your goal is heaven, then you better get down on your knees and start begging. If he shows mercy, you can enjoy heaven; give no thought to the living victims of the crash that you caused who are forced to deal with the pain & suffering. Apparently god has no mercy for the living.

But if your goal is Moksha, you would do the same as if you were alive. If you were alive, you stop your car, attend to the injured & give whatever help that is necessary. Later, stand tall and take responsibility for your actions, humbly deal with the criticism and blame thrown at you, and work to make things better for the injured victims. This is where Karma & Rebirth comes in, once reborn, realize that you have been given a chance to set things right.

Another example would be of a student who turns in a bad paper, then begs his Teacher to pass him anyway. By taking “mercy” on this student is the Teacher doing the right thing? Is he helping the student? A good Teacher would never do that, if She does, She is not doing her job nor is She helping the student.

Enlightenment or Moksha, then, must be acquired or earned, never given nor begged for. It is the higher goal.



ssinaya

Age: 39
Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 1508
Location: Na

Posted: Wed Feb 03, 2010 12:14 am Post subject: (No subject)

Are you equating Moksha to heaven?

Cos Hindus have a heaven too.

And good actions bring one to heaven.



pairamblr

Age: 65
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 559

Posted: Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:23 am Post subject: (No subject)

good actions bring one to heaven

if at all so, for a few days....
like a paid holiday

and then back to work

cheers



ssinaya

Age: 39
Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 1508
Location: Na

Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2010 3:58 am Post subject: (No subject)

Well said Ji!



toshiya

Age: 36
Joined: 25 May 2009
Posts: 16

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:32 am Post subject: (No subject)

hello, i am new here but I want to share something that i believe in hindu

according to my knowledge, heaven and hell is also acknowledged by hindu

but, different from other religions which use equation below :

heaven (hell) = good attitudes + begging mercy - evil attitudes

if the result of the equation is positive then a spirit will earn heaven, but if the result of the equation is negative then a spirit will earn hell. And the result is for eternity since they don't know reincarnation

I don't know what will happen if the result is zero. I asked them but their answer is the result will never be zero (that also is a main reason that arab nation wasn't the inventor of zero number)

while in Hindu, there are no equation like that

as long as you don't earn a moksha, then any good attitude in your life will earn heaven and any evil attitude in your life will earn hell. Even pandawa did earn hell



Narasimham

Age: 37
Joined: 30 Jan 2006
Posts: 796
Location: Bharat

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:15 pm Post subject: (No subject)

lol but when the result is ZERO that means it is Moksha.

_________________
The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil,
but because of the people who don't do anything about it - Albert Einstein



pairamblr

Age: 65
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 559

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:35 pm Post subject: (No subject)

Narasimham wrote:

lol but when the result is ZERO that means it is Moksha.

But Narasimhamji, do we have such a thing called "mercy" ?

Any action produces some result - and that result could be "punya" = pleaant
or "Papa" = unpleasant.

Ability to convert a result
which 'appear' to be a papa [ unpleasant ] to punya [ pleasant ]
is possible when one looks at it as 'prasada'.

But even here, the subject enjoys the fruit of action [ papa or punya ]

However, when the subject [ one who acts ] understands that
he is only an "actor" which is the crux of the understanding.

When roleplay is understood, then the actor is not affected by anything
and in such a situation the actor has no action on him - but it is on the role -

Understanding of that is *LIBERATION* from any bondage / attachment.

cheers



ssinaya

Age: 39
Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 1508
Location: Na

Posted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:55 pm Post subject: (No subject)

Zero points is only possible when all your prarabdha is burnt and nothing is in your sanchita and one exhausts his agami karma in this life.

Pairmblr Ji, i am still a little confused. We had this discussion before, did you check on this karma not affecting anyone who has the "arpana/prasada" buddhi?

There is a difference between understanding something academically and actually establishing onself in the knowledge(Moksha).

Are you saying that a person who academically understands the logic of Karma yoga and uses arpana/prasada buddhi is untouched by Karma?



pairamblr

Age: 65
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 559

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 5:24 am Post subject: (No subject)

Ssinayaji,

You are not the only one confused, there is a long "queue" an

d somewhere
in this queue, don't you see me too standing? lol

What our scriptures say is : Karma helps "anthah karana sudhi"
in simple words, Karma helps in getting clarity.

Now that clarity, if it is only "prasada budhi", then it could be more
like from a devotee. Meaning, the recovery from the pleasant/unpleasant situations will be faster.

Probably, gaining the knowledge of Self - that Aham Brahma Asmi or Tat tvam Asi etc leads one to Moksha. At our level, as students we differentiate between academic knowledge and some other type of knowledge. This thought of some other type of knowledge may be because of our not fully convinced with the gained knowledge. If I am convinced that This totality is Brahman and that Brahman is not separate from me, then how will we act in our life? Even in this transactional life?

That may be where the understanding of role play comesup in the mind.

some loud thinking...and some food for thought??

cheers



kd gupta

Age: 58
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 374

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 12:57 pm Post subject: (No subject)

Liberation [ Moksha ] is the word everybody has the right to achieve . Nature , animal world and lastly the human has the right for liberation . All scriptural material suggests to follow them with open eyes and ears and thus applying full consciousness .Old Vedas say…Nakam nam nityaniratishayanamokshaparamapadaksharpardhamadishabdvachynakakhyavakunthalokam . This says that without harming anybody including nature or environment and living entities , one feels pleasure experiencing the Almighty in himself , is Liberated in real sense .Krsn in gita says…Yatendriya manobuddhir munir mokshaparaayanah;
Vigatecchaabhaya krodho yah sadaa mukta eva sah.
With the senses, the mind and the intellect always controlled, having liberation as his
supreme goal, free from desire, fear and anger—the sage is verily liberated for ever.
Once sage Narda asked to Sanatakumars , to preach him about the Almighty and Moksha . Sanatakumars told that these scriptures including Vedas are the matter of tongue , these if not well understood may not lead to proper meaning , therefore the absolute truth is not knowing I am brahma , but to realize the Brahma in oneself and that is real pleasure [ Moksha ] .There is a Vedmantra saying that if somebody does not feel the fear of Almighty in himself has nothing to do with scriptures , may be Vedas too and is never liberated .
Yastanna ved kimracha karishyati . rig. 1/164/39



pairamblr

Age: 65
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 559

Posted: Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:42 pm Post subject: (No subject)

Namaskaram Guptaji,

to quote you, one feels pleasure experiencing the Almighty in himself is liberated in real sense.

with that sort of a statement, does one need any further explanation at all?

However, the last part of your post " absolute truth is not knowing I am Brahman, but to realize the Brahman in oneself...." yes, I have heard so many saying this line; but I often wonder, how will it be possible for one to realize unless one knows?

namaskaram



ssinaya

Age: 39
Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 1508
Location: Na

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:10 am Post subject: (No subject)

Pairmblr Ji

Yes, many of us are confused ahhahaha!

But i think one still incurs karma when he adopts the Karma yogi path. What a Karma yogi gets is chitta suddhi through his acceptance of everything. But he is not devoid of karma. If he does good, he will get good. Is this yr understanding too?

Understanding and establishing oneself in brahman are 2 diff poles. Only when you establish yrself in the knowledge are you liberated and do you understand what Brahman is. Academically, we are prob scraping the surface.



pairamblr

Age: 65
Joined: 07 Oct 2006
Posts: 559

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 5:52 am Post subject: (No subject)

Ssinayaji,

You are more than right - and I think - for one who wants to make himself
absolutely sure, the confusion is likely to continue.

However, if for a few minutes we keep away our confusion about whether I am Brahman or not - and focus on other issues, I feel that itself is a great thing for the 'self ie individual'.

for eg: If I understand Karma yoga and I perform all actions with the prasada budhi, then am I going to be affected *much* by the results?

If I am in the right direction as far as the thinking is concerned, then every time I do an action, I am not so much bothered by the result - even though I do perform the action expecting a result that I wish to have. This thinking is also - may be a beginning of the *no bondage* situation - which in otherwords is clarity in thinking.

some food for thought??

cheers



kd gupta

Age: 58
Joined: 05 Jan 2009
Posts: 374

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 9:53 am Post subject: (No subject)

Namaskaram Pairamblr sir
1. how will it be possible for one to realize unless one knows?
2. This thinking is also - may be a beginning of the *no bondage* situation - which in otherwords is clarity in thinking.
If we think food for thought , then take the Sambar and Bada and offer it to me , I shall greet you with thanks . Now feed it to a monkey , would you think that he may miss his habit of mischief…..no .
This is said by Krsn that O Arjun , you will not sit idle and will act as per your habit[nature] or swabhav and you will fight .

Therefore knowing parmatma is cultivated in ours mind by knowing C for Cat and this cat sense lastly makes us perfect to know C . Similarly starting from Sagun Brahman like , say Rama , Krsn teaches the super performance of parmatma and lastly we feel Brahman inside [ like I feel ]
For second point again Krsn says that every effort makes the fruit , therefore it is wanted to perform that duty which is defined by shashtras or scriptures and not Akarm and then you are free from all results .



ssinaya

Age: 39
Joined: 31 Jan 2006
Posts: 1508
Location: Na

Posted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 10:43 pm Post subject: (No subject)

Pairmblr Ji

Yes you are right. Its better to focus on improving ourselves instead of trying to understand Brahman academically.

Its a great idea to just focus on ones svabhav and dont bother abt the fruits. In this way an individual is not bothered on the phala of karma.

Thank you fr enlightening me on this!



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